The following is the transcript of an interview with Democratic Sen. Chris Van Hollen of Maryland that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on Feb. 23, 2025.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re joined now by Maryland Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen. Good to have you here. I want to refer back to the interview we just did with the President’s Special Envoy Steve Witkoff. You watched the Middle East closely. I know you were just meeting with Arab leaders when you were in Europe last week. He said that it is not realistic to have Palestinians remain in Gaza while it is rebuilt. Egypt and Jordan are working on plans for that to be possible. Does- does that proposal have any chance of surviving, or is this idea of moving them away for 15 years going to happen?
MARYLAND SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: So, the good news in what Steve Witkoff said was that he expected us to get to phase two of the discussions. The very bad news was he did not disavow this outrageous idea that Donald Trump put on the table of cleaning out 2 million Gazans. That is ethnic cleansing by another name, and Arab countries are right now working very hard to put together a plan to show that you can deal with governance, security and reconstruction, and that you don’t need to have 2 million people pushed out of Gaza in order to do it. It is tough. It will have to be done in stages, and they have identified areas in Gaza, few areas in Gaza that have not been obliterated, where you could begin to phase the reconstruction and at least get people housing, temporary housing, as you rebuild in other areas.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But how does that survive if the United States most powerful player is saying that’s not what we want to do?
SEN. VAN HOLLEN: Well, this is a big problem, because when Trump made those statements, what he did was fueled even more the far, far right in Israel. The Ben-Gvirs, the Smotriches, who were just celebrating, because their idea all along has been to move 2 million Palestinians out of Gaza. They also want to move Palestinians out of the West Bank into places like Jordan and Egypt. So in addition to being a reprehensible idea for moral and legal reasons, it would also totally destabilize the region, which is why the Arab countries are working so furiously to put together a plan that addresses these issues and has a future horizon that provides security to both Israelis and Palestinians, and self determination for both Israelis and Palestinians.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We are also hearing that the President is closing in on this deal with Ukraine in regard to its mineral resources that can be used for all sorts of valuable technology. What security guarantees are you comfortable with the U.S. giving to Ukraine as part of any of this?
SEN. VAN HOLLEN: Well, I think this is all negotiable, but what you should not do Margaret is begin your negotiation with Putin by number one, adopting the Putin narrative, saying that Ukraine started this war, which is just a big lie, and you shouldn’t begin by giving up certain key cards. So, for example, American guarantees, or a future for Ukraine in NATO. However you settle this in the end, is a matter of negotiation, but it’s terrible negotiating to give up those cards right up front, as- as Trump has done.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It was extraordinary to hear Steve Witkoff describe his meeting with Vladimir Putin as he did for us.
SEN. VAN HOLLEN: I would just say that this is not “America First”. This is America in retreat, and China and Russia and our adversaries are celebrating every moment of this as our allies are scared to death. And this is not just rhetoric. This is reality. And so–
MARGARET BRENNAN: This is what you heard at Munich last week?
SEN. VAN HOLLEN: Yeah, well, and I think you know, European allies and others from around the world who believe in freedom and democracy, they’re wondering whether this is just rhetoric or whether this is a real shift. My warning to them is, I think this is reality. I think Trump is much closer ideologically to Putin and other autocrats around the world than he is to democratic countries.
MARGARET BRENNAN: An extraordinary statement to digest, but I want to ask you about what’s happening here at home, because you sit on some powerful committees. The administration did have some legal wins this past week. USAID, a federal judge said that they can put on administrative leave thousands of USAID employees. Another district court denied a request from unions to stop the firing of federal employees. Are Democrats too kneejerk to say that all this is unlawful?
SEN. VAN HOLLEN: No, this is unlawful. In many of these cases, judges found that the plaintiffs did not have standing, but other parts of their opinion clearly indicated that Elon Musk did not have the authority to do what he’s doing. So we just talked about the great betrayal of the Ukrainian people. What we’re witnessing now is the great betrayal of the American people. Candidate Trump said he was going to lower prices right now, what he’s doing is slashing important public services that help every American in order to finance a tax cut for the super rich, for Elon Musk and the billionaires.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So there was this email that went out yesterday to federal employees. We know that at the FBI and the State Department, management inside those agencies have told employees don’t respond to the personnel email saying respond with your five bullet points. Can people working at the State Department feel safe not responding? Are they putting their jobs at risk?
SEN. VAN HOLLEN: I don’t think so, because what we are witnessing are illegal actions by Elon Musk and a number of courts, as you know, have issued temporary restraining orders on their efforts to seize important private information, but also on their overall conduct. So what the head of management at the State Department said is, Elon Musk doesn’t have the authority to require State Department employees to answer these questions. That has to happen in the chain of command–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Even though the President says he wants them to be more aggressive?
SEN. VAN HOLLEN: So the reality is we don’t- we don’t know what the President meant, but as you pointed out, you’ve got Elon Musk taking a chainsaw to the federal government and important services, and there’s no article four in the Constitution that gives Elon Musk that authority, and the way that he’s been sort of quote delegated authority is there- it is illegal, and the actions he’s taking are illegal, and we need to shut down this illegal operation.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Van Hollen, thank you for your insight today.
SEN. VAN HOLLEN: Thank you.
